I feel that vertical jump is a much greater priority to me than strength. I'd rather be able to fly than to be really strong. But the good thing is that vertical training will also increase strength as well, but I think it makes more sense for me to optimize leap over strength, so I'll start to follow a vertical jump program.
As far as I know, Kelly Baggett's programs are very good.
http://msuathletics.ru/books/bible/vert_jump_bible.pdf
"Regular Intermediate Profile
1. You squat 1.5 x bodyweight or leg presses 3x bodyweight or more.
2. Your general strength and reactive strength are both good but neither one
outweighs the other. Your best box jump will be somewhere between 5-20%
greater than your ground jump but not more.
3. Your vertical jump could be anywhere from average to very good (20-32 inches)."
I fit somewhere in this category.
"Can I add in upper body workouts?
Yes you can add in upper body workouts. You can either do the upper body along with
the lower body workouts or you can train the upper body on separate days. I recommend
you try combining everything together initially. For upper body you might add in a
pushing movement like bench press, a pulling movement like a chinup, a shoulder
exercise like dumbbell presses, a biceps exercise, and a tricep exercise. That’ll be about all you need."
So I plan to do the Intermediate Program at page 97 and probably keep doing bench and overhead presses starting strength strength style with some pullups, dips, and curls as assistance.
Friday, May 20, 2011
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A year ago I probably would've written about 10 pages of a reality check. But now I'm just tired...so, so tired. Do whatever makes you happy. But um, just for clarification's sake...your goal is to fly?
ReplyDeleteI often question the methods people take to get to their goals, but I don't think you should ever denigrate other people's goals (unless they're clearly self destructive, which this isn't). If Q wants a big vertical jump, and he trains hard to get one, then more power to him.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, I don't know if anyone here can really help you, but I look forward to your progress.
"Fly" is a term used in the manual, of course that just means having a big vertical jump.
ReplyDeletefirst page:
"If you want to fly, you’ve got 3 options:
1. Buy a plane ticket
2. Sprout feathers and wings
3. Improve your vertical jump"
My specific goal is to gain maybe 6 inches in my vertical jump, enough to grab the basketball hoop rim without running start and dunk with running start.
Frank,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the support! It's basically still a lot of squatting and deadlifting with some jumping exercises, so I could still use your advices on the lifting part of the training.
The manual recommends testing every 4 weeks and adjust towards strength or plyometrics depending several other tests every 8 weeks.
I'm not denigrating Q's goal because honestly I don't see one. And the thought process behind switching over from powerlifting to vertical jump training is completely opaque to me and I'm sure to everyone else. Look, you can do whatever you want, free will and all that. But if you post on the blog it means you want feedback. This is my feedback.
ReplyDeleteIt looks like you basically got up one day and said: I want to jump really high. If there was anything else behind that decision, then tell us, because otherwise it looks completely random. Random goals don't last for very long and we've seen first hand evidence of that on this blog. By questioning this now, I'm trying to do Q a service rather than pander to a fleeting whim, which, honestly Frank, you have no way of knowing this is. Blindly supporting someone can be just as destructive. If this is more than that, good for Q, best of luck. But if it isn't I'm the one who has to ask the tough question. Why?
Wow...just for shits and giggles. Kelly Baggett is also the author of this gem: How to gain muscle and burn fat on a diet averaging 2400 calories/day.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly3.htm
Shanker,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the feedback.
I see very little difference between vertical and powerlifting training actually. I have the same reasons for doing both: becoming stronger relative to bodyweight. Powerlifting is pure strength, while vertical jump is an explosive application of that pure strength. Not all that different considering that I'd have to still squat heavy every workout anyway. So there is really no change in the overall big picture. Vertical jump is a good measure of reactive strength. Pure strength is good, but I want strength that can be applied in as many situations as possible and explosiveness is the way to go. Training both absolute strength (weight lifted with no time constraint) and explosiveness (percentage of absolute strength that can be applied in a short time) are necessary.
Also here is the entire volume of comedy brilliance. Enjoy!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly.htm
Not saying everything he says is horseshit, just a large portion of it. He is 90% marketing through outrageous promises, 10% actual training knowledge.
No comment on his bodybuilding articles' quality. As far as I know he's only 5'9" 170lbs and he has not trained any competitive bodybuilder, but he did have a 40+ vertical and 400lb+ squat and training plenty of others to get there. So I'll just take his advice on what he's good at and disregard his bodybuilding articles.
ReplyDeleteJust curious, but why the shift? Why did you want to be strong before, and why do you now want to be able to jump high? I know I'm biased, but one of these seems to be a lot more useful than the other, in addition to probably driving the other with a small amount of jump practice.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is that I view both as very similar goals. I actually started lifting after I learned that many of the top sprinters are incredibly strong. Strength transfers to speed which is also very highly correlated with vertical jump. Good sprinters and jumpers are strong; good strongmen are also fast. It's just a matter of slight change in emphasis.
ReplyDeleteI have actually increased my vertical by about 3 inches since I've started squatting, but I'm curious what squatting with a combination of speed drills could do. I'd say a high vertical jump automatically implies that you can squat a lot, have a good strength-weight ratio, and are fast on your feet; all qualities that are useful. Basically what I'm doing now is strength with jump practice.
IMO, I see nothing inherently wrong with training for a big vertical. It's sort of like how some of us train for powerlifting, others train for Olympic lifting, and so on. As long as you have *some* consistent metric for progress, you're on the right track.
ReplyDeleteWhen I saw Q post this, I actually thought this was a result of a conversation we had a while ago when I told him that he had to pick a goal for himself since he clearly wasn't that committed to Starting Strength, which was what I had encouraged him to do before. A goal that you pick for yourself is always more meaningful than one that's imposed on you. Q can correct me if I'm wrong.
Regarding Kelly Baggett, from my reading, I actually think he's one of the more reasonable fitness writers out there, with the caveat that I've never read his bodybuilding articles since I'm not interested in that stuff. Every internet guru, good or bad, has to do some marketing in any case. Just look at EliteFTS. We'll know in a few months how good Baggett's advice is if Q manages to improve his vertical significantly since it's already not bad (27" or so).
Dead on Frank. Consistent. Q is not consistent (I'm sorry, I'm really not trying to pile on). It's been less than a year and you've switched programs 3 times. Thats not consistent. Consistency is always something I have to see to believe. I hope you're consistent, I wish you the best of luck, but I don't believe it...yet. Now go prove me wrong.
ReplyDeleteCalling me out eh? Alright, that's my motivation to follow through with the program.
ReplyDelete