So this has become a topic of some discussion recently, given Gordon and Rob's strict adherence to the Mark Rippetoe "school" of lifting and the general popularity of "Starting Strength" among a good number of us.
My goal is get a good discussion going, regardless of experience level and I would encourage anyone and everyone who has an opinion to post it.
But I digress, there are two areas of the Deadlift that I think would be interesting to delve into:
The first pertains the lifting with a heel.
Here are the two interviews that Rippetoe gave to Myles Kantor about a year ago explaining his logic for advocating lifting shoes in the DL.
http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/interviews/going-deeper-into-the-deadlift-with-mark-rippetoe-part-1/
http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/interviews/going-deeper-into-the-deadlift-with-mark-rippetoe-part-2/
Also...Rippetoe's original analysis of deadlifting:
http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/51-2006_AnalysisofDeadlift.pdf
The second pertains to hip placement. By this I mean keeping your hips high vs. low. I don't know that there is a right answer to this question given how different body proportions can be, but I think there are distinct advantages and disadvantages for each one and I hope discussing this will highlight some of these as some of us may not have thought about this in much detail.
I'll kick this off by looking at point #1:
My basic understanding of Rippetoe's overriding point throughout all 3 articles is merely that the mid foot, bar and scapulas must all be lined up at the initiation of the lift. I'm not sure why he has to make extreme and absolute statements like "it is better to lift with a heel" and "the bar MUST touch your shins" when these statements are secondary, and honestly, quite subjective, as compared to his fundamental point.
Now, his reasoning for these statements is sound. If the goal at the initiation of the deadlift is to use the posterior chain to keep the lower back in flexion at a constant angle and use the force of the quadriceps to drive the entire torso and bar upward, then it makes sense to want to maximize the amount of quad drive that one can generate (of course while keeping the lower back in flexion and the hip angle constant). Logically, using an elevated heel in this instance WOULD increase the amount of quad drive one can generate. However, at what cost?
This is where body proportion comes into play, I feel that Rippetoe fails to account for the fact that differing proportions can affect the feasibility of these secondary pointers. I could definitely see a circumstance where someone with short femurs would benefit from deadlifting in a heel, but by and large I feel that for the average person or someone with longer femurs and tighter hips (like myself) a heel would adversely affect the ability to hold the lower back in flexion via posterior chain, as the hip angle would be decreased. This would also force the knees forward which in general increases the amount of motion required to get the lift to lockout. Basically in a heel the deadlift becomes more like a deep(er) squat. I think there is an explicit passage in 5-3-1 (and I'm sure many others have the argument before as well) that we can all quarter squat more than we can full squat. Obviously this is taking the argument to the extreme, but it illustrates the point.
Finally...not everyone's feet aligns their shins with their midfoot. So even if you take Rippetoe's assertion at face value, it's not consistent because, again, he fails to account for differing body proportions.
Alright, that's my take. Let's have at it.
Friday, June 4, 2010
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All that needs to be said:
ReplyDeleteLook at every deadlift record holder in the history of powerlifting. They do not wear heels. I guarantee you that people have tried, and decided that the extra 1'' deficit was NOT worth it.
Other thoughts:
Wearing heels for deadlift could be a temporary measure to get around flexibility problems. But even then, I would think it a bad choice.
I also feel like heels tend to generate a clean pull instead of a deadlift. They are NOT the same thing.
Gordon and Robert need to stop fellating Rippetoe. Get your training opinions from a variety of sources and try them all. Keep the ones that work for you (let you lift more) and ignore the rest. Rippetoe has some good basic advice for training plans, but he also has a lot of plain stupidity. "Keep your upper back rounded to start a squat." "Deadlift from a 1'' deficit to activate your quads" [which do NOT lift the weight in a conventional deadlift].
1. DL with a heel: I tried this for a while about 5-6 years ago and it sucked badly. But this is only my own experience, so there are no implications regarding other lifters. The only suggestion is to try all sorts of shoes and see what works best for you. In my case, it's simply bare-foot DL (so technically, DL slippers).
ReplyDelete2. Hip placement: I suspect that when most lifters follow Rippetoe's DL setup instructions to the letter, their hips will initially be too high (with a too horizontal torso angle). This is only what I think.
Also, although starting strength and practical programming are really good books (for example, my squat is now exactly like suggested in SS), I don't like Rippetoe's mentality in general. He doesn't understand (or doesn't want to admit) that things are not always black and white.
I'm pretty much in agreement with everything that's been said so far, except maybe for Nate's first note (it would not be surprising to me if a person who has a build capable of pulling deadlift records also has a build that's conducive to lifting without a heel, but this doesn't necessarily mean that a given person will always lift less with a heel). As Danny said, experiment with it and see. For what it's worth, my deadlift only really took off after I started lifting without shoes.
ReplyDeleteWith respect to hip position, I think that the primary points are correct (bar over mid-foot with shoulders directly over the bar). In fact, I think it's impossible to pull heavy with the bar anywhere else, unless you're really ramping it up your thighs, which is illegal. The other stuff is just details. Play with it.
I think we have to be VERY VERY careful about offering advice in that what works for you (us, whatever) will not necessarily work for everyone else. Hips high and hips low are both valid. Wide stance and narrow stance are both valid. It's up to the individual to determine which feels strongest (e.g. my squat started going up only after I moved my stance in and stopped sitting back so much). In fact, it's probably useful to develop an understanding of all the variations that can be successful, much in the way that Paul Carter at functional-strength.blogspot.com did for the back squat. This is one reason why it's so useful to have experienced lifters around. They've seen enough other people lift (in person) to know what works.
There are a handful of things that should be carefully monitored (flat back, hips not rising too fast, etc.), but the rest is just details.
Finally, I would be a little careful about bagging on Rippetoe too much. As a person, I'm pretty sure that he is well aware of the many lifting variations. I remember that in the chapter on the deadlift, he has a picture of some dude deadlifting 700+ with his heels together and he basically says, "Yeah, this guy is strong and uses a technique different from what I'm going to teach. It works for him, but I'm going to teach you my way anyway." The problem with relying solely on the books is that books are finite, moreso than people, so there's really only space enough to go through proper technique for one version of a lift unless you want a separate book for each lift.
excellent, excellent...
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nathan's comments, especially with respect to the clean pull. I've tried heels as well but the movement progress is very different and from my experience, doesn't lead to maximal deadlifts. Deadlifting is all about moving the bar the shortest distance with the maximum force. One of my old coaches, Bull Stewart, advocated just pulling with your finger tips in order to reduce the stroke another inch. Deadlifting from a deficit - even a beneficial one - still means you have to produce that much more force to get the bar where it needs to be.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I have noticed that lifting with a heel will often prevent novice lifters from hitching or just plain dragging the bar on their quads. The heel generates force ever so differently so that the bar tends to grace over the front of the quads, which is how it should be. I think this is often due to the lifter not being able to lean back as much in the heel, which reduces the hitch. Of course, this is anecdotal, but it's another observation of where the heel may alter the technique beneficially if you don't know what you're doing in the first place.
Another DL variation that wasn't discussed earlier (but this is related to what David said, "moving the bar the shortest distance") is DL with rounded upper back. I started pulling this way a few months ago, maybe because I have short arms (and short legs, and short torso, yet I'm 6 feet tall, go figure). For me it makes a big difference, and the movement almost feels like a rack pull.
ReplyDeleteI've never been able to pull off the rounded-upper-back pull, my lower back always goes first. But I agree that it is a good option for people who can do it without breaking themselves.
ReplyDeleteHere's Bull Stewart that Dave was talking about ...
ReplyDelete